I work with Physicists. Now I am a physicist myself and we tend to be logical, calculating, reasoning types (as well as nerds for the most part ;). I'm the only Christian or even religious person in the group of us that have lunch everyday and we often have quite good discussions about religion (as well as lots of other stuff). While not being believers the others are quite open and understanding, even though they can't understand why I would believe in a god.
One asked a question today which I don't really have a good answer for yet. "Why did God need to send Jesus to suffer and die?" Simple question and I think most christians would give a simple answer. But why was Jesus' life forfeit for our sins? My friend asked "why couldn't God just forgive us?" I think it's a lot more complicated and there is much more to it that we often credit.
We both understood the importance and significance of God becoming man and providing an example to us, rather than simply sending instructions or commands. But why the requirement to die? I speculated that this could be related to Jewish practices at the time, where forgiveness or atonement was related to sacrifice. But this still doesn't explain why Jesus' death was necessary.
Any thoughts? I'd appreciate some help/insight into this one. :)
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7 comments:
I only have a simple answer pete - but because the penalty for sin is death, and Jesus' death was payment for all of it.
In the OT they had to sacrifice perfect lambs to God to make payment for the sins of their nation. Jesus was the same deal. He was PERFECT and his death was enough for God to wipe our sins clean.
I think I might leave it to middo to go into all the theology of it, I really can't be arsed typing it out right now :) it's fri arvo!!
I will just quickly say that the world was created PERFECT and when sin entered the world, so did the consequence for that sin....death.
Hope that helps or makes sense. Sorry its quite simple.
A few reasons that I can think of without trying to get too theological:D
Firstly, the punishment for sin is death. Genesis 2:17 "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
Under sin, every person who has sinned deserves death. This means both physically and spiritually as far as I understand. Can explain more but it gets theological:D
Therefore a sinless human was required to die to make up for this death requirement. Though we still die 'physically', because Jesus died (and importantly rose again) when we die in Christ, we too can rise again.
Secondly, the other key idea for Jesus death is the 'shedding of his blood' idea. You are quite right in linking it to the Jewish practise of the time. Right from Leviticus, blood (and therefore sacrifice) was important for the forgiveness of sins. But no sacrifice made could 'stick', they had to keep going back and sacrificing year after year because no blood that was sacrificed could be a once for all deal...unless it came from a sinless human (aka Jesus).
Romans 3:21-26 sorta covers this idea.
"21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."
In fact, Hebrews 9 & 10 (I won't quote the lot here) are the best places to go to get an understanding of why 'blood' was important. Heb 9:22 being a key verse.
"In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."
Heb 10:4
"because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."
Heb 13:12
"And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood."
Only Jesus blood could be a 'once for all' deal. People who say they have had visions of heaven (either at death before returning, or as prophets) have often spoken about 'seeing the literal blood of the lamb on the altar in heaven'. Interesting.
So it is for these 2 reasons that communion is held highly. The bread, flesh symbolises Jesus human body being given for us. It suffered death, but conquered it and he came back to life. Also, the cup symbolises Jesus giving his perfect blood to pay our blood debt.
Ok, you get the idea? I can't seem to write a short comment today:D
I also want to point out (and laugh at the fact) that when I typed my comment...I hadn't read Bek's comment...and she put it MUCH more succinctly than me:D
i luv luv luv this topic...and my brain is buzzing with big answers bt im going go hm and finish the chapter in reading at the mo b4 i answer...it does have to do with the with satiffying the law and God being righteous and us not so atonement had to be made....i wrote an exegetical paper on it from romans 3:21-24...might dig it up...reading all these blogs is giving me so much to think about...
Would love to be a fly on the wall during those workplace discussions you speak of :) I've met physics people before, and I've found that even if they don't believe in God, they all seem pretty interested in creation/existence/etc. Possibly more so than your average crowd.
I struggle with this topic myself actually. The notion that Jesus had to get physically tortured on the cross to the point of death so that God doesn't have to inflict that same physical torture or otherwise on us is one that I find hard/impossible to grasp, especially in the light of the loving, compassionate, non-violent Jesus that we see in the gospels. The Jesus we see in the gospels wants to liberate us from every kind of bondage and love us.
I figure that whenever we sin (i.e. put our own human nature/selfish desires first), we are drawing ourselves away from God. We damage our relationship with God, and put ourselves outside of God's mercy. I guess that it amounts to a spiritual death. And my line of reasoning here follows that it also leads to literal death as well, when we cut ourselves off from the life source.
By Christ dying and then being resurrected, he killed both spiritual and literal death. We couldn't have done it ourselves, because when we sin (or go away from God) and repent (change/keep on changing), we will sin again, and damage our relationship with God again. Because Christ was/is God, he had the authority to demonstrate his power over both literal and spiritual death. By aligning ourselves with Christ, our relationship with God is vicariously healed. By demonstrating power over death, Christ also demonstrated that he wasn't just another guru/philosopher.
It is like we are saying "thanks for healing my relationship with Christ/God, because I couldn't have done it myself. Thanks for saving me from hell on earth, and separation from God after death...
In chapter 4 of C.S. Lewis's book, "Mere Christianity", entitled "The Perfect Penitent", he mentions something about how different Christians have different views of the atonement, and different language for describing it, and that's okay. For him, the main thing is that we *are* redeemed through Christ's death and resurrection. At the risk of turning my comment into an essay, I just want to include a little quote...
"The central Christian belief is that Christ's death has somehow put us right with God and given us a fresh start. Theories as to how it did this are another matter..."
For me I find it's helpful to discuss these theories. Good topic.
Nice to know you are listening to me Middo!!
:p
i called my sis on the weekend and asked her the 2 questions in this blog...we had a good chat and instead of trying to tell you what she said i am goin to paste in an email she sent me yesterday...
___________________________________
To be honest with you, i ponder this very question myself ... why did it have to be such a humiliating, degrading, horrific death? I guess my sin is horrific and degrading and humiliating on my personhood - something that God cannot bare.
Jesus had to die because there was a problem. That problem was sin. God created humans for community with eachother and with Him. We were created to be a part of the divine relationship (which already existed between Father, Son and HS). But I am a sinner, and so that relationship is broken, i have severed my relationship with God by my wilful acts of pride etc. As a God of Justice, God could not look upon me in my fallen state, somehow i needed to be made clean and sinless again so that i could be in his presence - so that i could be in relationship with Him again.
The Jews used to sacrifice animals to God as sin sacrifices - but all the while there was a giant curtain in the temple which divided the Jews from the earthly dwelling place of their God (the holy of holies). In their sin no humans could dwell with God. Humans also couldn't do anything about the predicament of sin, so God, by His infinite Grace and Mercy, reached out to us. In John 1:14a it says: "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." The word "dwelling" there literally means that Jesus 'tabernacled' among us. And what is the tabernacle? The tabernacle was the dwelling place of God. God 'tabernacled' or made his dwelling place among the people.
Jesus was a perfect and sinless man, and at the same time was God. He could be our sacrifice because he was fully Man, and he can forgive our sins because he is fully God. When Jesus hung on the cross all of human sin was cast upon him and the curtin in the temple, which separated the people from the holy of holies was torn in two.
In Romans 6:23 Paul says that the wages of sin is death. Because i am a sinner, i will die. This is a two fold death - i will die a physical death (because we have no access to the tree of Life and are mortal) and i die a spiritual death - because i am a sinner by nature and spiritully dead. If the wages of sin is death - then for someone to pay the price for me, they have to die my death. On the cross Jesus had my sin and iniquity cast upon him, and he died my death. He died my death as a substitution for me - so that i dont have to die it if i believe in him. It is really important to note that if Jesus had've just died, it would all have been pointless. But after dying Jesus rose to life, into his resurrection body - the firstborn spiritually alive man (Colossians 1:15). Because he died my death and took away my sin and iniquity and because he rose again - we can be spiritually alive too. And its not just for after we die a physical death - it is for now too (now and not yet). In John 6:47 Jesus says that whoever believes in Him HAS eternal life (thats now). In John 10:10 Jesus says that he came that we might have life and have it to the full (thats now).
Thus God had not only dwelt among his people, but he has made a way for every generation to be in right relationship with him. He did this as an act of pure love and grace and mercy, despite the fact that we were the ones who went astray.
Having been fully man, Jesus experienced every aspect of humanity, including life, temptation and death. Thus as He intercedes to the Father on our behalf, he can identify with every aspect of our humanity, and the struggles and trials we go through.
As 1 Corinthians 15:1-5 shows, Jesus lived, died and rose again according to the Scriptures (that is - the OT prophets). Thus Jesus death was also the way it was as a fullfillment of OT Scripture - including the Psalms (cf Ps 22).
Interestingly the concept of "Righteousness" also has a strong concept of relationship fundamental within it. We cannot be considered righteous without relationship with Jesus and it is through that relationship that we can be considered righteous and have relationship with God. Righteousness also has to do with the idea of Justice and moral uprightness - so you can see how all these concepts become interwoven and the deep need we have for substitutionary atonement.
And what do we have to do in return? Repent and believe.
I hope my thoughts are of some help.
Much love,
Ruth.
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